Mr Ceylan, the New Year's Eve riots were the first upset of the year. Even rescue workers were attacked. What did you think when you saw the pictures of that night?

Tim Niendorf

Political editor.

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That was shocking. I immediately had New Year's Eve 2015 in Cologne in mind. At that time, there were sexual assaults on women. New Year's Eve 2022 had a different quality, because mainly police officers, firefighters and rescue services were attacked.

Together with your colleague Michael Kiefer, you have now tried to approach the causes of the escalation. In a publication for the Konrad Adenauer Foundation, you write that on New Year's Eve all vehicles that were in use with blue lights were regarded by the perpetrators as state actors. Therefore, they had been chosen as the target of the attack. Especially in Berlin, however, many police officers and rescue workers themselves have a migration history.

I don't think these young people even notice that. The Berlin night showed that. Many of them go into opposition to the state.

To blame problems with young people only on "culturally conditioned notions of masculinity or religious factors" is too short-sighted, you write.

We believe that such events are the result of complex problems: Do I belong or do I not belong in society? Poverty is also a factor, as is education and integration into the labour market. Certainly, religious factors also play a role or cultural factors such as the image of women. This should not be downplayed. In recent years, people have come from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, i.e. from less secularized societies. There the gender relations were different than here.

In your paper, you mention a school in Duisburg where the police had to come 25 times last year alone. They also mention swimming pools that only dare to open with security. What went wrong that it came to this? And how can this be prevented in the future?

In most cases, intervention is only made when the child has already fallen into the well. Even in these cases. You have to take care of young people who are socially conspicuous earlier. You have to look at the social spaces as a whole. Hotspot schools are located in certain parts of the city. All you have to do is dig through the newspaper archives and you'll see that it runs like a red line.

In Germany, municipalities are currently complaining again that they are overburdened with the number of refugees. What would cities have to do to prevent the emergence of new problem districts?

Düsseldorf, for example, has divided its own city into social spaces. They looked at streets where several problems come together: unemployment, poverty, educational problems, violence and so on. This allows the city to better target its resources where they are most needed. The money is well spent. Otherwise you get the bill later – and it's more expensive.

Couldn't cities also try to mix up districts more?

Voluntary segregation is fine, forced segregation is a problem. It can be an advantage for some to live where there is a Turkish- or Arabic-speaking lawyer or doctor. If you want to move to other parts of the city, it is sometimes difficult. For some years now, for example, the number of social housing units has been declining. In any case, good access to the labour market is important. But suppose you are a young person from Duisburg-Marxloh and include this address in your application. This often leads to exclusion and discrimination.

Can the shortage of skilled workers remedy this?

Absolutely. However, it is important to start at school. Especially in problem schools you need more staff. I have an acquaintance who is a teacher in the north of Duisburg. It is very, very difficult to organise normal lessons there. He is happy when at least one or two students listen. He reports of lack of concentration, of verbal attacks. There should actually be two specialists in the classroom and more school social workers. Only: Here the shortage of skilled workers strikes as well. Recently, a primary school wanted to introduce the four-day week due to a lack of staff, as I have read. When it comes to demands on schools, you also have to be realistic.